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Help - the argument from evil
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Author:  Mike [ Sun Apr 05, 2009 12:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help - the argument from evil

reason wrote:
Mene-Mene wrote:
If God suddenly decided that it was righteous to slaughter millions, I don't get a choice in the matter, it's righteous to slaughter millions.


Are you serious?

What if your religious leader comes to you and tells you that he had just this "revelation" from God last night in their dream? Do you not realize that this is EXACTLY how religious wars get started? Some Muslim lunatic right now is indoctrinating hundreds of young people like you into thinking that it's righteous to slaughter Westerners and fly planes into buildings.


Now a religious leader is not God, and I seem to recall in the old Testament God killing the first born.

So if my Paster said that to slaughter millions of course it would be wrong.

However if all the first born around the known world were to suddenly die, that is both biblically historical and within God's right.

I also recall the Bible teaches we are all sinners, the wages of sin is death.

So yes I deserve a death sentence - daily I try to remember that I was spared from it.

Author:  Mene-Mene [ Sun Apr 05, 2009 5:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help - the argument from evil

reason wrote:
Mene-Mene wrote:
If God suddenly decided that it was righteous to slaughter millions, I don't get a choice in the matter, it's righteous to slaughter millions.


Are you serious?

What if your religious leader comes to you and tells you that he had just this "revelation" from God last night in their dream? Do you not realize that this is EXACTLY how religious wars get started? Some Muslim lunatic right now is indoctrinating hundreds of young people like you into thinking that it's righteous to slaughter Westerners and fly planes into buildings.


No, I'm not saying that if a leader said it was God's will I'd do it, I'm not saying that if I heard a small voice saying it, and I know God wouldn't do anything like the Holy Wars. What I'm saying is that God is perfectly righteous and omnipotent, and what He says goes, no matter what we think...

I hardly appreciate being compared to a terrorist.

Author:  reason [ Sun Apr 05, 2009 6:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help - the argument from evil

Mike wrote:
I also recall the Bible teaches we are all sinners, the wages of sin is death.

So yes I deserve a death sentence - daily I try to remember that I was spared from it.


Well, why don't you inflict that sentence upon yourself then?

And I'm really confused about this: what exactly have *I* done to deserve a death sentence? How was it my fault that Adam didn't listen to God? Did I have any chance to exercise my free will and stop Adam?

Author:  Mike [ Sun Apr 05, 2009 6:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help - the argument from evil

reason wrote:
Mike wrote:
I also recall the Bible teaches we are all sinners, the wages of sin is death.

So yes I deserve a death sentence - daily I try to remember that I was spared from it.


Well, why don't you inflict that sentence upon yourself then?

And I'm really confused about this: what exactly have *I* done to deserve a death sentence? How was it my fault that Adam didn't listen to God? Did I have any chance to exercise my free will and stop Adam?


Because all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

And the wages of sinis death.

Adam fell and the whole universe's rules changed.

But each and everyone of us have sinned, disobeyed God and fall short of the standard.

And in some standard how short does not matter (like jumping over the grand canyon missing by 1 foot versus 500 feet still means it's a long way down)

Author:  JeTSpice [ Tue Apr 07, 2009 9:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help - the argument from evil

don't have time to read whole thing (apologies)

Prayer is not to beg God to do something, it's a sign of faith. the faith is accrued in heaven, and it procures change here on the earth.

the prayer is a tool that God has given us to fight, not to beg God to do something.

Oh, if I hear another misguided "please, God, help, oh please." I'm gonna blow up.

the evil in the world is an indirect result of sin. sin brought in disease and earthquakes. earthquakes are not a natural result of millions of years of dust making planets and when they get to big, they produce shifts in the plates. before sin, there were no earthquakes. God made the earth perfect. nor was their any disease.

Every single person on teh planet is sinful. those who haven't perished should be grateful for mercy.

i've had atheist friends. i'd talk to them. if they believed, then they wanted to believe and know more. if they didn't believe, then they wanted to believe less and shout about their own beliefs. those who wanted to know more, i told more to. those who didn't want to listen, i left 'em. simple.

Author:  reason [ Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help - the argument from evil

JeTSpice wrote:
before sin, there were no earthquakes


Uh, how do you know that? I haven't seen that in the Bible.

Author:  jesblood [ Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help - the argument from evil

Brothers,

I wish to make a statement to you all. I don't believe for a second after reading this entire post that "Reason" is a christian. I've looked at his statements in response to what others have said and I find it highly unlikely. Instead I would make the charge that this supposed friend and he are one and the same. A wolf in sheeps clothing if you will. Someone bent on attacking and stirring up trouble for fun and to show his mental superiority.

Take this statement for example - "Well, why don't you inflict that sentence upon yourself then? And I'm really confused about this: what exactly have *I* done to deserve a death sentence? How was it my fault that Adam didn't listen to God? Did I have any chance to exercise my free will and stop Adam?"

Come on. Any christian out there is not going to make such a statement. I find this a little odd don't you all? That response is obviously filled with hate and disdain. Not to mention that no christian needs to be convinced that sin is in the blood and that Adam originated it. Neither would they make an argument for fairness when all believers in christ know that Christ died on the cross to give you that fair chance to escape the second death. Christ made it fair by suffering for us. He experenced the second death so you wouldn't have to. Now with the option to choose you can escape what Adam did to mankind.

Finally, the last thing I find highly suspect about "Reason" is his choice of screen name. It in itself appears to be a mockery of our faith. Every atheist I've ever met attempts to use their sense of "reason" to attack our faith. They think that logic and "reason" will win the day for them and make us look utterly stupid. The problem is they could care less about the truth. They only care about being right even if they aren't. They typically come with oversized egos attempting to compensate for their own self loathing. I've yet to meet an atheist that is happy with him or herself. Joy just isn't in the equation for them.

Thats why they are busy attacking us. Because we are joyful even in the face of adversity. I'm sorry brothers but reasoning with "reason" is a complete waste of time. Whether his friend or he, the word wisely tells us that bringing wisdom to fools is an even more foolish thing.

Reason if you truly are a christian then I'd advise you to stop bothering with your friend unless God specifically commands you to speak with him. Then and only then will wisdom reach his ears. If he is a real person seperate from you, he has no intrest in being convinced as to God's reality.

Author:  reason [ Wed Apr 08, 2009 12:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help - the argument from evil

jesblood wrote:
Brothers,

I wish to make a statement to you all. I don't believe for a second after reading this entire post that "Reason" is a christian.


I certainly understand your thinking, jesblood.

I'm just confused.

On one hand, I was born an Orthodox Christian and went to church and have read the whole Bible, on the other hand I'm a programmer and thank God that I can think complex algorithm stuff like Bellman-Ford's.

Now all I try to do is apply my God-given reason to all things, not just computers. I'm sure that if God didn't want us to question anything, He wouldn't give us these amazing brains that can design an entire universe (e.g. Second Life).

As for my atheist friend, he's really happy. Truth be told, most of the people I've met that became atheists by choice, are happy. The atheists that aren't happy are the punk-rebel-pierced kind who listen to trash metal just because they want to be different. Those folks never really asked themselves about the purpose of life, so I wouldn't call them theists or atheists either. They just need to grow up.

Author:  Nehemius [ Wed Apr 08, 2009 12:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help - the argument from evil

1 Corinthians 1:25
"Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men."

Hello Reason.
I have some questions as well.
Where in the Bible does it say that God knows EVERYTHING? And by everything, I really do mean everything.
How do we know that God doesn't refrain from looking into some matters like some of our bosses. Now, a boss could be over your shoulder all day long (And some of you might have bosses like that), but a good boss won't. They purposely leave certain details in the hands of their employees; even some details that they may never ever know about. But does this make them evil in any way? Or does it make them less good in any way?
God desires relationship, and along with relationship comes surprises. And that entails risk as well.

Would God be less holy because we told him not to look at our Christmas gift that we made for him, but he already looked because he sees everything? :D
Or would he look away to respect our desire to surprise him?

I'm too tired to write any more :P

Author:  Mene-Mene [ Wed Apr 08, 2009 6:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help - the argument from evil

I hope you don't feel like you've been attacked reason.

jesblood:
You're not the only one who's considered the possibility that he isn't infact who he says he is. It's possible that I'm a girl and Mack is using a voice emulator and is a thirteen year old boy. (laughing at the thought) but it's possible.

But what does it matter if he's Christian or not? Paul says to have an answer ready to defend your faith and then God will give you the words to say. A wolf attacks, he's not attacking, he's questioning, I think it's important that we question ourselves, and this topic is no new topic, it's been around for decades if not centuries.

So really, why would it matter Christian or no Christian, if he's not a Christian and saying he is makes him comfortable enough to ask, I don't condone the lying, but what's important is that his belief is strengthened or established. We have the way, the truth and the life, we have little to fear if we follow it. Man is imperfect, but truth in God is perfect.

There's nothing wrong with reason, and if we're not able to thwart their imperfect truth, what good does perfect truth do us? Sometimes when struck against iron we must lose a little bit of ourselves so that we may become stronger. No fire, you only have ore.

Reason:
You bring up very valid points. First of all, I agree with questioning some, but understand that there are somethings that we don't have the whole picture to. We live in time, God is outside of time, we have no grasp of what could happen. God does everything with eternity in mind. It's possible that if he'd designed the human heartbeat to go only sixty times a minute then thousands of people would die... We don't know because we're not there.

However, there's quite a bit that can be explainable, but the only truth we're sure of is what the Bible says, anything beyond that can be brought into question. Our interpretation of the Bible can be brought into question, but the Bible I firmly believe is God's word. There may be imperfections, the NIV might present one view while the CJB another view, but it's still God's word.

On happiness, it's less about what we believe and more about the quality of the people who believe it. Christians (myself included) are so lazy and stuck-up in their ways that they fail to see that in Ecclesiastes the sum of life is presented. Our lives are but a journey, but just because its a journey doesn't mean we're not supposed to enjoy it. Here's what life is all about: Fear God, and keep His commandments. But we're supposed to enjoy life. Live life like it its, a journey, but a playground. Have fun, but be smart. Everything in moderation, but do not forget to have fun. Life is short, live it well.

Ecclesiastes 12:13-14

Fear and love are interconnected, you can't fear God without loving him, and you can't love God without fearing him. We love God through our fear of Him, and through our fear of Him, we love Him. James says it incredibly well, (not sure where, but I remember reading it) Our love of God is displayed through our works, but our works without love are not works at all. There is but one way to obey God, and that is through love, but in our love, we must obey God.

In the short of it, we're living our lives wrong. They're happy because they're living in the moment, we're not because we think so much about eternity that we forget that we're still here on Earth for a reason. If all they see are a bunch of boring, sleepy, unhappy Christians, do you think they'll have anything to envy? Heh, I wouldn't have anything to envy and I agree with them.

If you want yet another summary, Live your life, and live it God's way.

Author:  JeTSpice [ Wed Apr 08, 2009 7:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help - the argument from evil

ev'body take it EZ.

***

reason, you're right in that the Word does not expressly say "There were no earthquakes" but it does say in several places that the cause of the earth's decay is sin. it says it symbolically and literally.

but it's really a question of "loving the Truth" vs. "hating God."

when a person come up against a tough question, the flesh wants to hate God, and the Spirit of Christ is compelled by the Truth.

I am certainly familiar with that battle, and seemingly you are too.

So we are brought to a point of decision, but the decision is ultimately made on faith--either faith that God is who he says he is (good, loving, just, merciful) and we have no proof of that, but we move forward in our thinking toward that, and test Him to see if he is good. Or, that God is responsible for evil... and neither do we have proof of this, but our attitude is to move away from God in our thinking.

So, in a trial, it's very important to remind ourselves to assume God is who he says he is, and test that train of logic, rather than assume that he is not who he says he is, and test that train of logic.

Author:  jesblood [ Wed Apr 08, 2009 12:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help - the argument from evil

Mene-Mene:

First off I just want to apologize if I upset you with my post. I agree with everything your saying to me. Yes we should have an answer ready and seek the spirit of God to answer any and all questions put to us. I also believe in reason, as true reason and logic line up with God and everything he has to say. God is absolutley logical and emotional. He is able to properly balance the two were we can't without his help. My beef isn't with logic and reason, its with dishonesty.

As far as questioning faith, I have no problems with this either. I have asked diffuclt questions of God many times and he has been faithful to answer everyone of them. I don't know about anyone else, but I've asked the hard questions like:

1. God why did you make Lucifer knowing he would fall and become Satan?

2. God why did you make man knowing he'd fail you?

3. God why did you create the beings that would later become demons?

4. God what are you doing and why are we here to begin with?

5. God why do we have free will? What's the point?

Eveyone of these questions he has answered, and he answered them logically. It all makes sense when God opens up the scriptures for you. Without the help of his Spirit you'll never decode the ice berg and get under the surface.

I don't have any issues with questioning God about faith. It's when someone seems to be questioning God's judgment that I find a little disturbing. Especially one who is of the faith. Like Jet said - "So, in a trial, it's very important to remind ourselves to assume God is who he says he is, and test that train of logic" I completely agree.

Jet:

By the way, the bible records that the foutains of the deep burst forth cracking open the surface of the earth when the flood occured. Which accounts for the missing water needed to flood the entire surface. Here the bible records the breaking of pangea. Hence the arrival of the tectonic plates. Your statments earlier are not only correct but the bible backs you up. I just thought I'd pass that along.

Blessings

Author:  Matt Langley [ Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help - the argument from evil

It's great to see things turn harsh and then turn softer :)


The only thing I'll throw in here is in response to:

Quote:
By the way, the bible records that the foutains of the deep burst forth cracking open the surface of the earth when the flood occured. Which accounts for the missing water needed to flood the entire surface. Here the bible records the breaking of pangea. Hence the arrival of the tectonic plates. Your statments earlier are not only correct but the bible backs you up. I just thought I'd pass that along.


You can believe whatever you want, just understand that science does not back this up in any way... here is a good refuting of it (and other) creation science attempts to reconcile their world view with science.

Quote:
The current thinking of the young creationist geologists is perhaps best shown in a paper co-authored by six of them, including Austin, Morris, and Wise (Austin et al., 1994). Their "tentative" model of "Catastrophic Plate Tectonics: A Global Flood Model of Earth History" starts about 6,000 years ago with a pre-flood earth differentiated into core, mantle, and a crust with horizontal segregation into granitic continents and basaltic ocean basins. "If this differentiation had occurred by any natural means, the gravitational energy released ... would produce enough heat to melt the earth's crust and vaporize the earth's oceans. ...it most certainly occurred before the creation of organisms (at the latest Day 3 of the creation week.)" The authors note that "even though such differentiation could have been performed by God without the 'natural' release of gravitational potential energy" the differentiation process provides a natural driving mechanism for the proposed next stages of rapid motion, the Noachian flood. This was initiated as slabs of oceanic floor broke loose and subducted along the edges of continents. Deformation of the mantle by these slabs raised the temperature and lowered its viscosity into a runaway convection system which overturned the whole mantle. Upwelling mantle plumes created the mid-oceanic ridges, drove plate tectonics at rates of "meters per second," and discharged magmatic steam into the atmosphere to cause the flood. Tidal waves washed the continents and piled marine sediments into great mountain systems along the edges. In a few hundred years after the flood, residual heat from the cooling ocean floor warmed the oceans and climate into a system characterized by efficient atmospheric transport of moisture to the poles to create glaciation and ice caps.

The thermal problems of this model are mind boggling. At the start, gravitative energy released by earth's differentiation into core and mantle would raise average temperature of the entire globe by 2,500 degrees (Birch, 1965). To this must be added the frictional heating of the runaway subduction plus the massive heat of condensation of a collapsing vapor canopy. Then brand new basaltic ocean floors at minimum temperatures of 1,100 degrees C. had to form over 2/3 of the earth's surface, presumably beneath non-boiling flood waters. Finally this massive thermal pulse dissipated in a few thousand years by unstated processes to leave most of the earth's surface devoid of hot springs or abnormal heat flow. The authors apologize that their "model is still in the formative stages and thus is incomplete." From a thermal viewpoint "incomplete" seems like gross exaggeration. An incandescent earth with an asbestos ark floating on a sea of molten lava would be more appropriate!


source: http://www.csun.edu/~vcgeo005/wise.htm
(the primary article http://www.csun.edu/~vcgeo005/creation.html, a Christian)

Creation Science is not the same as Science. There are huge issues with believing in a "Global" flood. Some of those are textual ones. The context of the story is the people Noah knew, obviously he didn't know people outside of his travels, so it's likely that concepts are based on the context of the story, a flood that effected all of his world. An example of this in the Gospels is Luke 2:1... here are three translation, note that NIV decides to translate it in context, since it is ridiculous outside of context:

Luke 2:1

New American Standard Bible
Quote:
Now in those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus, that a census be taken of all the inhabited earth.


KJV
Quote:
And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed.


NIV
Quote:
In those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world.



Obviously the context is the entire Roman Empire, which is why NIV translates it as such and NASB has a note suggesting that's what is intended... yet if you forget context then this concept becomes ridiculous, that Caesar would decree to those in other continents possibly that he didn't eve know existed? Those on islands, etc...

There is no theological, textual, or scientific reason to believe in a "Global Flood", at least the concept of "Global" we have. Though to the people of the time their entire World may have been flooded and we even have some prime historical candidates that fit the time and place. A modern concept of "Global Flood" however has no scientific backing and in fact has science that challenges it at every turn.

Just felt I should present the apposing view.

Author:  jesblood [ Thu Apr 09, 2009 12:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help - the argument from evil

Matt,

I love you but I don't get you. You are the strangest believer I've ever met. A man who professes christ but works hard at disproving scripture. I just don't get it. If part of the book is bogus or misunderstood then the whole bible is useless. How would you ever know what was real and what wasn't. You couldn't. You'd have to accept the parts you like and reinterprut the rest as you see fit. You certainly have that freedom. It's just that the logic escapes me.

Also, I understand what you mean by the different translations can be very misleading, however, if you will study the scriptures in the original languages you'll find that english is a lousy language. The originals (ancient Hebrew and Greek) are more precise in their meanings. If people will study them then the scriptures become sharp as a razor.

If you will read the account of the flood in the original Hebrew its queit clear that the bible makes the claim that the entire world was flooded. If you want to refute that such a thing is possible, thats fine you have that freedom. I'm only stating that it does say the entire world was flooded.

Lastly, I'm not going to fight to convince you. It's pretty evident you believe what you believe firmly so I'm only going to say this; I've study the theoretical sciences and they all have holes. Some gaping, some small. They are called theory for a reason. None of their thoughts based on the facts can be absolutly provin either. Also I don't hang my beliefs on what others say I should believe or accept. I always investigate for myself. It doesn't matter who it is. I don't care how many phd's they have or how many seminaries a pastor has excelled at.

Cosmology, Geology, and evolution are all still theoretical sciences. They are whole schools of thought built on one assumption after another for the most part with very little practical (provable) science to back them up. I've spoken with people who studied under an anthropologist, and I know and am friends with an expert geologist to this day. I know in, most cases, first hand that human knowledge is still grossly crude while man has arogant pride in spades. But please don't take my word for it. Go study the findings yourself. Find a proffessor at your local universitiy and ask them pointed questions. Listen very closely, you'll hear - we think, we assume, its most likey, it maybe that, we're very sure it could be.

Not exactly words to live by.

Blessings

Author:  Mene-Mene [ Thu Apr 09, 2009 7:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help - the argument from evil

JesBlood:

The issue here is not scripture, but interpretation of scripture. He works hard to disprove your interpretation of scripture, not scripture itself.

Author:  jesblood [ Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help - the argument from evil

Mene-Mene:

Please understand I have great respect for you. I've read many of your posts and threads and have learned much as a result. I know, no wait a minute, everyone who reads them knowns where your heart is.

However what Matt is doing is the same thing the Pharisees and the Saddusees were doing to each other. They were constantly working hard to destroy each others interpretation of scripture. It didn't get them very far.

Look Matt may mean well, but it really doesn't accomplish much.

I've had enough of this thread. All we are doing is fighting each other. Which I still beleive was the underlying point of this discussion to begin with whether by man or by the enemy. I'm out -

Author:  Matt Langley [ Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help - the argument from evil

jesblood: Mene hit it pretty right... Your belief of a "Global Flood" is completely your interpretation, you would probably argue that scripture says it's global, except I gave you another place in scripture that it says Global and people use the context to specify what that means, not taking it for meaning literally the whole world was called to census by Caesar (hence interpretation).

Let me give you one thought jesblood, if the possibility of interpreting scripture a different way threatens ones faith then maybe ones faith is in their interpretation and not in God. Just a thought, take it or leave it.

I have absolute faith in the living God not in the text written by men (a fact no matter how much you challenge that). If you are not willing to consider alternate interpretations then that's your own choice, I do not choose this.

You gave your interpretation, I gave mine, why does that threaten you so?

Author:  RockinRickOwen [ Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help - the argument from evil

This is pretty much what Irish Cream wrote, but in summary.

In Romans 1, the general outline of human history is given:

1. God revealed Himself to mankind, both personally and through His creation.
2. Mankind rejected God's authority, wanting to run things by themselves.
3. God turned Mankind over to their own sins.
4. God has offered salvation from sin and its consequence (current and eternal separation from God) through the death, burial and resurrection of Yeshua the Messiah (Jesus Christ)!
5. God WILL remove all sin, sorrow, and death from His creation at a future point... those of mankind who have not repented will be removed as well.

The RHETORICAL problem with the challenge is that it poses a false dilemma (as it does so logically as well). The assumption is that IF God exists and IF He is good, THEREFORE He will remove all evil from the universe. However, one more factor is involved: the authority to remove the evil. I believe that if an atheist is being honest, they'd have to admit that if they knew that God existed, and that God is good, they would still not call Him LORD. But to remove all the evil in the universe requires an authority which they will not permit Him to have in their own lives. So basically, they're holding Him to a standard they themselves don't accept.

I believe that for some, the reality is that they don't want to let go of the sin (such as arrogance) in their own lives, but realize deep down that admitting God exists means admitting that there is such a thing as sin in their own lives, and there are consequences for that sin. For others, it's a more complex issue, and has to do having problems with authority figures in general. I would expect other reasons as well, but these are the two that come immediately to mind.

Author:  JeTSpice [ Mon Apr 13, 2009 6:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help - the argument from evil

nicely said, mr. Rro

Author:  Matt Langley [ Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help - the argument from evil

RockinRickOwen wrote:
This is pretty much what Irish Cream wrote, but in summary.

In Romans 1, the general outline of human history is given:

1. God revealed Himself to mankind, both personally and through His creation.
2. Mankind rejected God's authority, wanting to run things by themselves.
3. God turned Mankind over to their own sins.
4. God has offered salvation from sin and its consequence (current and eternal separation from God) through the death, burial and resurrection of Yeshua the Messiah (Jesus Christ)!
5. God WILL remove all sin, sorrow, and death from His creation at a future point... those of mankind who have not repented will be removed as well.

The RHETORICAL problem with the challenge is that it poses a false dilemma (as it does so logically as well). The assumption is that IF God exists and IF He is good, THEREFORE He will remove all evil from the universe. However, one more factor is involved: the authority to remove the evil. I believe that if an atheist is being honest, they'd have to admit that if they knew that God existed, and that God is good, they would still not call Him LORD. But to remove all the evil in the universe requires an authority which they will not permit Him to have in their own lives. So basically, they're holding Him to a standard they themselves don't accept.

I believe that for some, the reality is that they don't want to let go of the sin (such as arrogance) in their own lives, but realize deep down that admitting God exists means admitting that there is such a thing as sin in their own lives, and there are consequences for that sin. For others, it's a more complex issue, and has to do having problems with authority figures in general. I would expect other reasons as well, but these are the two that come immediately to mind.



I found that very interesting and even though I don't particularly agree with it I think it was well stated.

With that said I would have to respectfully disagree with the basic premise of that (though if I agreed with the premise I couldn't argue your conclusions).

This premise (that I disagree with) seems to be that atheists don't give God authority so he can't remove the evil from them (though obviously not exclusive to atheists, but they would be the extreme example). If I misunderstood your statement please correct me :)

The reason I would disagree with this is that it should be fairly easy to confirm. If this is the case then atheists most likely would do the most evil since they don't give an authority to God at all and would therefore contain the most evil (hardly or not even touched by the purifying hand of God).

This is the the observed case. In fact some of the worst things have done either with a strong belief in God or even in God's name. Now one could argue these people truly didn't give their authority to God (of course one can pitch arguments back and forth all day... Fundamentalists don't give authority to God because X! Liberal Christians don't give authority to God because of X! So I'm not sure judging each other on that which we cannot see would be the best route) though still even a person who claims to follow God but is misguided would seemingly have more of a touch by that purifying hand of God than an atheist. Again I simply don't observe this. Atheists can in fact do good things. Atheists can in fact be very good people. I'm not saying I support atheism (In fact I think it to be the logically weakest position on religion, even if an important stepping stone for all of us at times, I mean we all must be atheists even for the briefest moment to actually believe God is real) but I have observed atheists do good things and christians (or other followers of God) do bad things. So I would have to respectfully disagree with your premise, I don't think it's atheists don't give authority of God. I personally would argue it comes down to free will and if God violates his own gift then that is an evil act and God would never do an evil act to produce Good (not that he can't turn the results of an evil act done by others into good results, or good from bad so to say).

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