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Help - the argument from evil
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Author:  reason [ Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Help - the argument from evil
Hello fellow Christians,

This is my first post on the board, so let me introduce myself. I am a 20yo programmer from Romania. I like Perl and programming algorithms and data structures. I was baptized Eastern Orthodox.

The reason I'm posting on this forum is to ask for help. A good programmer friend of mine is an agnostic and when he asked me about my beliefs, I had no fear in telling him that I believe in God and our Lord Jesus Christ. Then, what he did was very interesting: he asked me if I thought I was a rational person (duh, I'm a programmer! I use logic all day, right?) and then he told me this argument, which I looked up and is called the Argument from Evil:

  1. A perfectly good being would want to prevent all evils.
  2. An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence.
  3. An omnipotent being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence has the power to prevent that evil from coming into existence.
  4. A being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil.
  5. If there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good being, then no evil exists.
  6. Obviously, there is a lot of evil in the world that is not created by man, so we can't say that man is punished for his sins (a baby deer burns to death in a forest fire for example, or the tens of thousands of children who die every day of disease in Africa).
  7. Therefore, God is not perfectly good, or not omniscient, or not omnipotent, or does not intervene.
  8. Moreover, what we see in the world with regards to evil, shows no difference from what would happen if God did not intervene.

I must say that I'm stumped to answer this argument. Usually I reply to this by saying that whatever evil happens, has a higher purpose, but when you think of those tens of thousands of infants and children in Africa, they seem to suffer totally pointless torture.

What do you guys think?
Author:  Mike [ Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help - the argument from evil
reason wrote:
Hello fellow Christians,

This is my first post on the board, so let me introduce myself. I am a 20yo programmer from Romania. I like Perl and programming algorithms and data structures. I was baptized Eastern Orthodox.

The reason I'm posting on this forum is to ask for help. A good programmer friend of mine is an agnostic and when he asked me about my beliefs, I had no fear in telling him that I believe in God and our Lord Jesus Christ. Then, what he did was very interesting: he asked me if I thought I was a rational person (duh, I'm a programmer! I use logic all day, right?) and then he told me this argument, which I looked up and is called the Argument from Evil:

  1. A perfectly good being would want to prevent all evils.
  2. An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence.
  3. An omnipotent being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence has the power to prevent that evil from coming into existence.
  4. A being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil.
  5. If there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good being, then no evil exists.
  6. Obviously, there is a lot of evil in the world that is not created by man, so we can't say that man is punished for his sins (a baby deer burns to death in a forest fire for example, or the tens of thousands of children who die every day of disease in Africa).
  7. Therefore, God is not perfectly good, or not omniscient, or not omnipotent, or does not intervene.
  8. Moreover, what we see in the world with regards to evil, shows no difference from what would happen if God did not intervene.

I must say that I'm stumped to answer this argument. Usually I reply to this by saying that whatever evil happens, has a higher purpose, but when you think of those tens of thousands of infants and children in Africa, they seem to suffer totally pointless torture.

What do you guys think?


I think the person making that argument has made one assumption - that at least I don't support. That assumption is God does not want us to have free will. In their argument God is controlling everything and therefore everyone.

That is not the God that I believe in.

God gave us free will because he wants us to choose to follow him, Satan choose not to, and as the saying goes misery loves company.

As a result of our disobedience - creation groans under the strain of sin (it's a paraphrase of romans but I have to go to work in a few).

So their error is

Quote:
[*]A being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil.


Because that being wants us to decide to follow him.

When we don't and sin - the wages of sin are death - and we are giving the enemy what he wants - which is to steal kill and destroy. Which is part of why evil exists. When we sin we also hurt other people, and other people can hurt us.

Other evils happen due to entropy and the way the system is winding down (the building collapse Jesus refered to) stating the important thing is will we repent or also perish.

Other evils come from it rains ont he righteous and the unrighteous - and while that was written most likely to a farmer - it's modern read is much different - saying to some extent there are laws that God made on how the world works and every instance of them does not work for everyone's advantage.

Just my two cents worth.

Mike
Author:  Mene-Mene [ Mon Mar 30, 2009 4:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help - the argument from evil
Great read, great topic.

I've heard the same argument but in less specific words, its nice to have it laid down bullet-point.
I think that seven really points out the flaw within the argument quite well. I'll play by the bullet point.

  • God is perfectly good. He plays by His own rules (keeps his promises) and wants man to love Him for who He is. God gives man a choice. He chooses to let man decide because of his nature. This is not a sign of weakness in His omnipotent being, but rather choice.
  • Man abuses his choice and causes evil to come into the world. Because God is omniscient He knows how evil will strike.
  • Lastly, because God is omniscient He can create the perfect plan which nullifies evil to the greatest extent while still giving man a choice and keeping the rules.

The weaknesses in the argument are these:
  • Man is defining good. God was here first, He IS good, because He defines good it's impossible for Him to not be good.
  • No perfectly good person is without love. Because God loves man, He in turn wants man to choose to love Him. So a perfectly good person MUST love.
  • Because God loves man, and He knows exactly what will happen, He chooses the path that will contain all his requirements. First, that man should choose to love God. Second, that evil should lose.
  • God is omnipotent, but He still has a choice to use His power.

That's how that argument is invalid. But I would take great care in talking to this friend. Don't destroy your relationship because of an argument over beliefs. There are good ways and bad ways to go about talking to him about God.
Author:  andygeers [ Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help - the argument from evil
It's my conviction that the Bible teaches that number 4 is where the argument breaks down, that a loving God would necessarily prevent evil.

Ephesians 1:3-10 speaks of how God chose us, before the foundation of the world, to be made holy and blameless before him, and to be redeemed from our trespasses and sins. So even before the foundation of the world, God made a plan which assumed the presence of evil and our need of rescue from it.

Ultimately, I think Ephesians and other books make it plain that even though we can't fully understand it, somehow this is the state of affairs that brings most glory to God's name.
Author:  samw3 [ Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help - the argument from evil
I would agree with the above posts. There are a lot of assumptions going into this argument.

Mankind would often like to put the blame on God for not acting in our world, but from what I see in the bible, it was never God's intention to interact directly with our world to manipulate it. Here's what I mean.

God's act was creation and he empowers his creation to do good by his Holy Spirit. The bible talk specifically about Christians as being the body of the Christ. It also reveals that cases when miracles occur without there being a person included in the performing act are *very* rare.

There are a few other large major assumptions in this argument such as:
  • Is pain evil? (Hedonism)
  • Is death the end? (Materialism)

On the surface this seems quite rational, but it is rooted in "the world's" values. Perhaps this is why the wisdom of God confounds the wise. I would present these to your friend and also consider them yourself.

Also check out this link: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ ... rvene.html

It is an exposition of this argument from an atheist view and quite thorough.

Here is his final paragraph. Note that this sentence "Since I do not think we have reason to believe God exists, I think we have reason to believe there is pointless suffering and so reason to believe God does not exist." is rather circular. In other words the rationale is elsewhere and the argument moot.

Quote:
Failure to see the point of so much suffering gives us reason to believe there is none, if we have no reason to believe God exists, even though it would not if we had adequate reason to believe he does. Once we have reason to believe that there is pointless suffering then we can use the following argument to show that God does not exist:

1. If God exists, there is no pointless suffering.
2. But there is pointless suffering.
3. Therefore, God does not exist.

Since I do not think we have reason to believe God exists, I think we have reason to believe there is pointless suffering and so reason to believe God does not exist. If I am right, the only way anyone can refute this argument is by offering reasons to believe that God exists. If we lack reasons for believing in God we should be atheists, not agnostics.
Author:  reason [ Mon Mar 30, 2009 2:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help - the argument from evil
Thanks for pointing out how the argument makes a bunch of assumptions. Those things are so self-evident that I didn't really give them much thought. I talked to my friend (Dan), but he's a tough case. Here's how he caught me in a dead spot again:

The definition of evil - if someone chains an animal to a tree in a forest fire and the animal burns alive, I think we all would agree that such a person is evil. If someone inoculates a child with the virus of malaria, we'd all agree that that person is evil. Our society and laws are based on empathy and respect for life, be it human or (more recently) animal. If someone would be considered evil for torturing animals or murdering children, why does God get away with it?

Man brought evil in the world - really? Man created malaria, or earthquakes that kill hundreds of thousands of people indiscriminately? (he quoted as an example the 1556 earthquake in China which killed 830,000 people). Now I must admit I'm hard pressed to think that all these people were sinners, or that their suffering while dying in the rubble of an earthquake was the best way to bring them to Heaven.

God's intervention - fine, God doesn't intervene (my friend completely agrees with this, obviously). Then what's the point of prayer? If the African child dying a slow death due to famine and disease prays and God doesn't intervene, what makes us think that God will intervene for our silly prayers to pass a school exam or the like?
Author:  ArchAngel [ Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help - the argument from evil
Like the first one, Dan makes some assumptions in his premises that aren't necessarily true.
(such that a perfectly good being would do all it can to prevent evil)

First, his definition of evil. While many people define evil based on empathy, a more absolute image of evil, to which God would apply, would be the absence of Good/God, just as darkness is the absence of light. Evil is not it's own entity, just merely shadows and the actions we call evil are mere the effects of evil.

As for intervention and the "point of prayer," your both looking at this from a very temporal, time-related view point, which falls apart once you realize God is outside of time itself. There is no future or past for God, it's all laid out. Any "intervention" is set up in many cases, may never be recognized. Maybe an intervention is losing your keys and thus leaving for work a little late, thus missing an accident that would take your life.
Maybe intervention is the discovery of penicillin which is used to treat your sickness. From a meta-time viewpoint, the natural and supernatural "interventions" really blur, since for someone who can control space and time, why even bother with "supernatural events" when you can manipulate the natural laws, which you have created.
Also, it's completely fallacious to assume that since God doesn't "intervene" all the time, that He never intervenes. When that reasoning is applied to any area of life, it simply becomes idiotic. Since I don't always eat, do I never eat?

Seems like Dan is preoccupied on the existence of evil and pain and how a good God can allow it.
An interesting point to note, in the garden of eden, the tree that would exile Adam and Eve from it was called the knowledge of Good and Evil. Not the Tree of Evil, or the Tree of Sin. The knowledge of Good and Evil.
A (hypothetical)child that is always protected and sheltered from sin can never be credited for making the right choices, or having knowledge of good and evil, since it was never given to him. Arguably, they won't even know good either, they just do what they do. Pure innocence, you can call it, but are they righteous? Maybe they are, this is mostly me musing about.
However, when a person sees the fork in the road before them each day, and chooses what's right over what's wrong, that person gets credited for doing what's good and right having seen and known what evil is.

But, anyhow, going back to the definition of Good and Evil, if absolute good is defined by the path of God, which, since He created all, it's an easy assumption, and if evil is defined by what is not good, the existence of evil is simply God allowing people to not walk in His way. Call it free will, call it defining and illustrating human nature, call it whatever, but allowing evil is God allowing for an alternative, with all it's consequences.

Once you start grasping the place of God, you start to realize that Morality isn't a concept that God has to hold to, but a concept that is defined by Himself.
Author:  Mike [ Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help - the argument from evil
reason wrote:
Man brought evil in the world - really? Man created malaria, or earthquakes that kill hundreds of thousands of people indiscriminately? (he quoted as an example the 1556 earthquake in China which killed 830,000 people). Now I must admit I'm hard pressed to think that all these people were sinners, or that their suffering while dying in the rubble of an earthquake was the best way to bring them to Heaven.

God's intervention - fine, God doesn't intervene (my friend completely agrees with this, obviously). Then what's the point of prayer? If the African child dying a slow death due to famine and disease prays and God doesn't intervene, what makes us think that God will intervene for our silly prayers to pass a school exam or the like?


Creation groans under the weight of sin (Romans 8) - the world is falling apart adn it started with the Garden - possibly accelerated with the flood (but that goes to a canopied earth - which is a young earth theory)
Author:  Mene-Mene [ Mon Mar 30, 2009 4:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help - the argument from evil
You're a programmer, now a great deal of the ideals of Object-Oriented programming is that of abstracting the inner-workings from the interface with which we use the class.
God intervenes by working through people, we pray so that God will work through us and through people.

Once again you're defining evil by the culture and by the agreement of the people.
In the United States walking out into public naked would be both illegal, offensive and considered evil. But in some countries walking into the market naked would be normal. This is an example of the failure of culture defining right and wrong.
God gives us five books which tells us what's right and wrong. His standards are the truth and the true right and wrong.
Author:  IrishCream [ Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help - the argument from evil
reason wrote:
  1. A perfectly good being would want to prevent all evils.



Broken premise... Here's the fixed version:
A perfectly good being will judge and destroy all evil.

Their understanding of God is skewed and their whole argument is nullified.
Author:  christo [ Tue Mar 31, 2009 12:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help - the argument from evil
Not sure if I am even quoting this one in context(so feel free to check it out) but the knowledge of Good and Evil that ArchAngel mentioned made me think of this verse James 4:17. The mention of earthquakes made me think about Numbers 16:1-35 .
Author:  Matt Langley [ Tue Mar 31, 2009 12:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help - the argument from evil
IrishCream wrote:
reason wrote:
  1. A perfectly good being would want to prevent all evils.



Broken premise... Here's the fixed version:
A perfectly good being will judge and destroy all evil.

Their understanding of God is skewed and their whole argument is nullified.


I would disagree... A perfectly good being would want to prevent all evil, not destroy it after their evil deeds have been done, at least in my opinion.

Though to interfere with free will would be a potential evil in my opinion, so a perfectly good being wouldn't justify preventing an evil by doing an evil.
Author:  Mene-Mene [ Tue Mar 31, 2009 12:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help - the argument from evil
God's will is that none should perish. And so it would go into his character if he were to prevent as much evil as possible.

Something that's worthy of note, is what if said African child survives? Suppose he becomes the next Mohammed and begins an entire holy war killing millions?
Author:  reason [ Sun Apr 05, 2009 12:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help - the argument from evil
Mene-Mene wrote:
Something that's worthy of note, is what if said African child survives? Suppose he becomes the next Mohammed and begins an entire holy war killing millions?


There's 26,500 of them being tortured to death every day. Would each of them have become a genocidal terrorist if God spared them?
Author:  reason [ Sun Apr 05, 2009 12:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help - the argument from evil
Matt Langley wrote:
I would disagree... A perfectly good being would want to prevent all evil, not destroy it after their evil deeds have been done, at least in my opinion.

Though to interfere with free will would be a potential evil in my opinion, so a perfectly good being wouldn't justify preventing an evil by doing an evil.


An omniscient being would be capable of making the tiniest change in the universe (using the principles of chaos theory) to prevent at least genocide-scale evil without tampering with anyone's free will.

Image
Author:  Mike [ Sun Apr 05, 2009 4:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help - the argument from evil
reason wrote:
Matt Langley wrote:
An omniscient being would be capable of making the tiniest change in the universe (using the principles of chaos theory) to prevent at least genocide-scale evil without tampering with anyone's free will.



Except it seems at least once a month a fact comes out that runs the rick of tottaly changing chaos theory, and our understanding of the universe. The current one is a super nova bigger then they thought one could be.

There are rules that run the universe - and they changed with the fall - things began to die, with the flood it rained - for the first time (I've heard argued - and seen a physics model for the earth that supports that).

The universe is falling apart due to the weight of sin and price (and about 6 months ago chaos theory proved that we must be alone in the universe - as the process of observing the universe - wears it out and the universe will withstand our looking at for maybe 10.000 years - although like most chaos theory proofs it was dismissed because it did not go along with the popular idea (that we are not along- in this case))

I have a five year old son, and he gets disciplined, and sometimes when what he has done wrong has caused it's own consequences I make sure he understands how the two tie together - what I think is we refuse to see that consequence for ourselves (human race)
Author:  Mene-Mene [ Sun Apr 05, 2009 6:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help - the argument from evil
That's a great one.... Real programmers use DNA... :p

It's possible that one of them would be. We don't know the future God does. We don't know what is right, God does. We're the clay, not fellow potters. While God did make some very intelligent and creative clay, we're still clay. We're not God, God is.

If God suddenly decided that it was righteous to slaughter millions, I don't get a choice in the matter, it's righteous to slaughter millions. That's not to say that man can't have an effect on God's mind, but God is omnipotent, and can choose to do whatever he wants, there's no God game that is good enough to reflect that because the player would have to make too many decisions.

If God decides that 2+2 = 3, then 2+2 = 3.
Author:  IrishCream [ Sun Apr 05, 2009 9:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help - the argument from evil
Matt Langley wrote:
Though to interfere with free will would be a potential evil in my opinion, so a perfectly good being wouldn't justify preventing an evil by doing an evil.



Romans 1:18-25
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.


Romans 3:9-18

What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written:

"None is righteous, no, not one;
no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one."
"Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive."
"The venom of asps is under their lips."
"Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness."
"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
in their paths are ruin and misery,
and the way of peace they have not known."
"There is no fear of God before their eyes."


No tell me, what is the freewill of the unrighteous man according to scripture? Is it not that his will is after his own sin and the way of destruction? Are we not told that God will have nothing but wrath for this?

Or have we forgotten that every ounce of evil in this is the result of man's sinful nature, either directly or because of man's original fall?

I'm certainly glad "interfered" with my freewill and awakened my from my futility and darkness. To Him I owe it all.
Author:  reason [ Sun Apr 05, 2009 11:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help - the argument from evil
Mene-Mene wrote:
If God suddenly decided that it was righteous to slaughter millions, I don't get a choice in the matter, it's righteous to slaughter millions.


Are you serious?

What if your religious leader comes to you and tells you that he had just this "revelation" from God last night in their dream? Do you not realize that this is EXACTLY how religious wars get started? Some Muslim lunatic right now is indoctrinating hundreds of young people like you into thinking that it's righteous to slaughter Westerners and fly planes into buildings.
Author:  IrishCream [ Sun Apr 05, 2009 11:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help - the argument from evil
He did not say that we would be executing such slaughter.

In fact, God would be righteous to send us all to hell for eternity after he ended our lives.

He is our creator and we have blatantly rebelled against him.
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