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I have to disagree with you on this view. For from bible we can find some places which contradict this view.

Some people also believe that people who havent heard of Jesus are going to be judged upon their conscience. But i dont believe that either.

Rom 1:20
"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

By reeading the whole place this implies that even those who never heard of Jesus, are without excuses because God is so clearly seen through his Creation.

An interesting thing concerning this pllace is in Greek Philosophy.

For at one point Greek Philosophers were wondering what is the force that moves everything else.

First one thought it was water, since every living needs water but water doesnt need a thing.

Then next one thought that watetr is moved by wind, nbut wind is not moved by anything, so it must be Wind that moves everything else.

And this way they continued until one of the philosophers came to conclusion that there must be some god who itself has power to exists and moves everything else.

Funnily that philospher himelf didint believe in his own theory, but it anyway gives proof to that verse that if you just keep looking around you, it is obvious there is God. That you dont necessary need to have heard about Him to find Him, and therefore are wihtout excuse.




What do you mean?

I mean, basically i havent actually found much of a way for anyone to get saved before Jesus, but it is obvious that some of them did, since in Bible there are mentions about some people that they moved to their fathers etc. which of course could be claimed to be only nice way to say that htey died, but due to some other ones mentioned differently that phrase seem to mean exactly that they got to heaven.

Also there is one interesting parable from Jesus in Luke 16:19 - 31 About rich man and Lazarus.

What makes it interesting is that normally Jesus in his parables rerfers as "There was certain young man" or "There was a certain noble man" or something similar impersonal person, but in this case he refers that there was a rich man and beggar NAMED Lazarus.

So that would imply that this is not an parable, but actual true story that have happened.
Which once again would prove that some people have entered heaven even before Jesus, since according to that story Lazarus got to heaven.



Im not sure how that "bornsin" (which i think in english is that Original Sin) is exactly based on, but to my understanding it is partly exactly about this you said, that because of Adams sin, even babies arent sinless but are in need of christ to get saved.

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From which we get to question about the age of accontability, when is it?

Is it some fixed date, id not, then on what does it depend on?

For exampel Jews were considered adult at age of 12 when they do that some ceremony which name i dont know. Is that the age when they become accountable?

Or is it the first time you are able to choose between right and wrong, like some 2 year old can decide wether he obeys or disobeys hes parents orders?

Or on what?

So what if 2 year old die wihtout Jesus, does he go to hell?

Youngest i have heard that have took Jesus as her savior have been 4 years old.

So obviously 4 year old can already understand the concept of Jesus and take him as savior.

So what about 4 year olds? Are they already on their way to hell if they dont take Jesus as their savior?

I personally believe same way that this is basically the way they got to Heaven before Jesus died in Cross, that they accepted him as savior through their obedience or something.

But that is something that i personally am very much in guessings only since i havent found from bible the answer to a question of how did they get to heaven.

Since bible gives us only TWO (notice, not just one) ways to heaven.

Either you follow the law and dont break any of them (which in practice is impossible to us) or you take Jesus as your savior.



Actaully i dont think Jesus went to paradise, unless he went there when he was about to already going to be getting raised from dead.

For point is that all our sins were thrown on Him. So Jesus became our Sins.
Now i believe it is like physic laws are to us, that sin just cant enter the heaven. That its not that theres some muscle guy in front of gate telling that you cant enter here since theres sin in you. But it is like gravity is to us. If theres nothing under you - you simply fall down.
So i believe it is same with sin, if there is any sin, it just cant enter heaven. You just cant get in, not even if everyone else tries to help you getting in.

So for that reason i believe that when Jesus died on cross, he went to hell, until he came back.

Of course what happened during those 3 days he was dead is unclear to us. Was he maybe even tortured there like any other sinner?

Actually mat 27:46 Jesus cries loud "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
"

I personally believe that is the moment when Jesus was thrown all our sins and for that reason since God cant bear Sin, God turned away from Jesus and that cry He shouted was maybe even shouted in Panic.
It might have been even that for that very moment Jesus might not have been even sure that He was Jesus or anything. He might have even been afraid of just dieing in His sins and ending up to hell for eternity, or maybe even just being afraid of simply atheistically dieing or something.
For i think He was all alone on that moment. God turned his face away, Holy Ghost abandoned Him due to all that sin in Him at that moment.

Which also reaises interesting question by the way. For if it was possible to Throw sins upon Jesus and if He ended to hell due to that, then have all those lambs ended in hell whom were thrown peoples sins in Old Testament times?

@ bugala

As far as children dying before choosing christ Jetspice is right. In the old testament Joshua was invading the land of Canna and had successes and failures. When we examine his failures its because the people in the tribes were sinning and not obeying the Lord in his commandements concerning not keeping the gold and household idols of the conqured peoples. Joshua then went to God and asked what happened. Why did they fail? God told him that a family in the camp had broken the commandment. So Joshua set out to find the guilty parties. When he located which family was responsible God instructed him to spare all in that family that were under 21 years of age. They were to be considered unaccountable for the crime. Everyone else was stoned to death. And just so you understand why this is important it says in the word that the entire family, all of them, participated in the crime even down to the little children. God is a fair judge. This is usually why the age of adulthood in most countries is set at 21. I how that helps you.

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@ bugala

I appreciate that you are thinking logically about what the scriptures say and that you are trying to make connections as to how things work. However I've noticed that you're not totaly relying on the scriptures to give you the answers you seek. God's word defines itself and gives all the answers you seek.

Remember that the word tells us that ALL SIN was poured onto him. That means past present and future sins. The word also tells us Jesus's answer to a man's question about what work must he work to inheret eternal life. Jesus said, "To believe in the only begotten Son of God. That is ALL the work that is REQUIRED of you."

I point these scriptures out because even the people in Aabraham's bosom or Paradise, which ever you like, according to the scriptures must believe in the only begotten Son of God in order to inherit eternal life. This is why Jetspice mentioned the possiblity of Jesus ministering to the dead in Paradise so they could chose to believ in him or not.

By the way, I agree with you. Jesus cried out to God " My God why have you forsaken me" because the sin had come upon him. God the Father can not look on sin. This is why he turned his back on him at that moment.

I hope that helps.

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bugala, some religions teach that Paradise and Heaven are the same. In my view, they are not. As jesblood referred to, Paradise is what people in teh New Testament called Abraham's Bosom. In the story of Lazarus (which i think is real, too), there's a description of the afterlife: the whole place is called sheol and there is a good side and a bad side, separated by a chasm.

the good side is Paradise/Abraham's Bosom. and the bad side is Hades. The chasm could arguably be the place where the angels who sinned are kept in chains of darkness.

when Jesus died, he went to sheol. in my view, he visited Hades, the chasm, and Paradise. He went there to affirm his Lordship and also for everyone there to affirm their stance. From the people in Hades, he received unbelief, and from the people in Paradise, he was believed in. He took the people in Paradise up to Heaven. This account aligns with Matthew 27:50-53 where people were raised to life when Jesus was crucified.

currently (today) there is no one in Paradise. People who die without Christ are in Hades. People who die with Christ go to Heaven. Where people go who never had a chance I don't know.

The chasm could very likely be the Abyss from revelation. And in Revelation it says that Hades is thrown into the Lake of Fire, so everybody who is in Hades will go to the Lake of Fire. Those who are in Heaven will go to New Jerusalem. There will be a new heaven and earth.

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edit: I like to think of entering into Heaven in very simple terms. Nothing evil will dwell in Heaven. So, if all the evil in a man is burned away, how much is left? If a person has the Spirit of Christ, but does not allow the working out of their salvation, then what has been saved? If a person refuse to allow the Holy Spirit to bring him into submission, perhaps he enters Heaven like a baby. If a man doesn't have the Spirit of Christ, then no good can come of him -- every thought of his heart is evil. We who have the Spirit of Christ ought to be thankful and show our thanks by following the unctions of that Spirit -- to reform the members of our flesh and bring them into submission to Christ, to take every thought captive unto Christ.

That was very interesting one, had never noticed that before.

Its even more interesting when you realise that Joshua is some sort of preimage of Jesus in very hefty way.

So when first of all connecting that Israel is preimage of us Christians (ie. Israelitans were supposed to marry only Israletians = Christians only christians, although actually Jacob married idol worshipper even propably which conclusion can be done from Her wife stoling idol images of his fathers = father worshipped false gods, and since shes his daughter, pretty sure she did too. And maybe thats the reason why it took seven years work before getting her as wife so wife would get converted before Jacob married her, who knows... anyway.. just bit side noted) And then when secondly taking that Joshua is sort of preimage of Jesus, it would make sense that according to this place there would be fixed age of 21, that below that enter heaven automatically and over where ever.

Very interesting.

However, you can argue wether they were unaccountable to all sins, or only for that one.
Since basically if they havent been stealing that stuff, then they hadnt honored theyre mother and father.

So there is possibility that they were put in sitaution where they could only sin, either break do not steel, or honor thy mother and father and might be unaccountable for that reason, plus that you really didint say no to your parents on those days yet.

So maybe 21 was considered an age when you were independent from your parents.

But anyway. That was first time i ever got any sensible listening track from bible about the question of when is man accountable to his sins and needs salvation.



And thats anoteher thing i havent noticed befoer, or might have noticed but have thoguht its just some catholic thing and havent paid more attention.

Have to keep my eye open for that thing more, for that sounds logic that there would be some different place where people in old testament ended.

Questin that might surprisingly give answers to this question is about the robber on the cross.

For Jesus says to robber that already today you will be with me in the heaven.

So supposing he ended first into paradise (Its not told which one died first, robber or Jesus, although i would suppose its Jesus since he died pretty qucikly for cross dieing and basically gave His own life instead of dieing) then he had entered heaven right after that proving that people from paradise would at least to some extent get to heaven.

@ bugala



Yes I agree. In fact it wasn't just Joshua that lead the people into the promise land but it was also Eleazar son of Aaron who was highpriest in place of his father at that time. If we examine their names something really interseting emerges. Joshua's name means messiah. Eleazar's name means " help or helper of God." Remember that the Holyspirit is also refered to as the helper. So the Messiah and the helper or help of God (Holyspirit) lead the people into the promised land. By God's son and his spirit are we lead into the kingdom of god. Thought you might find that interesting.



Yes at the age of 21 you were considered independent of your parents. You are correct. In fact all the things you do wrong or right under that age your parents are responsible for with God not you. Your parents up until turning 21 are your cover. ( I'm refering to the biblical law of cover god laid down )


Now you make an interesting point about honoring thy mother and father. However it says in the word of God honor thy mother and father "in the Lord". People tend to read over that last part. God only requires that you obey them so long as they are not telling you to for example stop believing in god or tell you to do something immoral or illegal. And even then if they do and you obey they are still responsible for your actions you are not for they are your parents and are your cover. I hope that helps.

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@ bugala



.Luke 23:43 - "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

Actually He said Paradise. So the robber with Jesus went into Paradise together. Jesus died first because as you correctly pointed out he died of his own free will. He dismissed his spirit. Then Pilot sent guards to the crosses and had the robbers knee caps broken to force them to die early. In ancient times this was considered a mercy. It typically took 3 to 4 days to die on a cross. A very painful way to go. So yes Jesus died first. Hope that helps.

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Hey Reason,

I don't know who you are, and what your intentions behind everything is. All I can see on the surface is that your intention was to prove a point. If that's all your intentions were then my post might as well be unread, if there is any part of you with a desire to understand, or simply relate, please read on.

Man kind's self seeking nature, is one which Christianity talks about alot. What I saw happen in this thread is this nature rearing it's in head both yourself and other forum members as well. I saw the outcome of what you achieved both revealed the weakness and frailty of this nature in some forum members here, and it also revealed this nature in yourself in desiring to prove a point. (I do encourage you to share and correct if that is misplaced)

Christianity isn't about being better than anyone else, having the intellect to prove a point, trying to prove Christianity has failed in Man's minds over and over again and I guarantee you that your intellect would disprove every bible theory available. And often the weakness of my own thinking has lead me to analyze things and create conclusions that haven't helped at all.

But I do know that God is real, and I come in weakness and frailty for I cannot prove nor intellectually debate that God is real.

If there is a part of you which genuinely desires to seek the truth, and I don't know if there is or isn't, or whether you are set in your ways. No one can convince anyone that God exists, Christians get things wrong all the time and it proves the frailty of the human condition which has been clearly revealed in this thread. All Christians suffer from this frailty and the difference is that they are on a path of processing it. They'll never be perfect, they'll fight and bicker, react and defend, it's human nature.

If you have a genuine desire to know if God exists, ask God to reveal himself to you, in the simplicity of a heart which says "I can't see in anyway shape or form that God is real, but if He is I want to know Him, if you're real God reveal yourself to me"

No Christian in the world can convince through the thought processes of Man's mind that God exists, if God's real why don't you let him show Himself to you? I don't know your history and I don't know what things you've faced and done, if you do desire to seek God seek in a heart of sincerity. An intention which simply wants to prove a point, is angry, is bitter, it wont do a thing. If there's any thing I can encourage it's that part of you to come forward to take a step out.

Kind regards,

David

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Jesblood, where do you find this in the Bible? It doesn't say anything about it in Joshua 7. :/

David: Great response! I think you made alot of good points!

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@ Lazarus

Sorry Laz. I'll have to look it up or search my notes, its been awhile and I'm very sleepy. When I find it I'll let you know be blessed brother. Love you.

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Verse: But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name