ChristianDevs Forum

Christian music, Christian movies, Christian books, Christian mints(?), when it comes to Christianity in forms other than the religious ideology we seem to love to define what it is. So when it came to games developed by Christians with a Christian message then it should be called a 'Christian game'...right?

Over the years at CDN we've debated about what makes a game Christian? Can games even be called Christian? Is defining it as such counteractive to outreaching to others? Is including Christianity into a product that's sold for profit the same as turning the Lords house into a marketplace? Are we assisting in the commercialization of Christianity? Should we be 'shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves' and hide our true identities and intentions? Where should the line be drawn in representing Christianity in games? Should there even be a line? Can Christian games be used as an outreach tool? Should they be?

If you enjoyed this thread then maybe you'll enjoy our other current discussion going on: Are Christian games dead?

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Ideas are a dime a dozen, drive and execution are far more rare.

One thing that should be figured out is what is the purpose of definition "Christian Game" and then figure out wether it should be altered, expanded or wether its still working.

I am giving small example here.

In Finland we almost never use word "Chrsitian Music" Since it would sound weird in our language. Instead we talk of "Gospel Music". And many times we even leave that "Music" out and simply talk of "Gospel".

The first conflict that comes from using Gospel Music is the conflict that officially Gospel Music refers to Black peoples Gospel songs from slavery times. However, since almost never anyone is actually talking of black peoples doing slavery made christian songs, this isnt much of a problem and is more of a thing that someone wanting to play smart points out during discussion.

However, we have this music competition for Christian Bands, and we call it "Finnish Gospel Competition".

It is pretty clear for everyone who hears the competitions name what it is about, but if we examine it better, it is pretty strange way to describe it.

For first of all comes the Gospel Competition. People do understnad that it of course refers to the Christian Music in Finnish language but when you think of that name better, it brings up a question of is it like preaching competition?

Bigger problem in my opinion is about putting Christian Bands, especially when they are thought as Gospel bands into order. Like this guy here is doing the best job as spreading gospel through music???

How is that possible? How can we decide that some band is better at spreading gospel than some other one is not. And should Christian bands even be put in order in the first place. For what is the criteria? Shouldnt we perhaps calculate how many people got converted by the band during the competition to determine who wins?

Anyway. Idea of talking of Gospel Bands is that it fits into Finnish language well. Idea about some band being Gospel Championship and having Finnish Gospel Competition is because being Finnish Championship of anything is clear concept to anyone.

For example we could use name of Gospel Talent of the year for example, which would be much better description basically, but when you go to newspapers and tell them we are having this Gospel Talent competition, they dont quite get it. it is just "So what?". But when you go and tell them that we have this Finnish Gospel Championship, that the newspapers get immediatelly that okay, so you are having a competition about which band is best in FInland. and they easily make stories.



Using this above example comes the question of what is the purpose of definition of "Christian Game" and is it working definition.

If you like, you could divide this categorising to further subcategories. For example there could be Christian interesting games, Games meant to convert without christian message etc.

But I think the problem would come when you go to Christian bookstore and you start telling that this one fits to the Christian Friendly category.

For they havent even yet figured out how to get the Christian Games category through to people, and now they need to get them into more subcategories and get those categories through to people too.

And for example if i would become converted today for first time in my life and would decide i want to play suitable game, would i start searching it from internet using "Christian frindly game" no. I would serarch for "Christian game".

So while the "Christian game" term isnt most accurate one, it anyway works for its main purpose the best than any other.


Examples of this category spreading in other places.

There is one large christian bookshop near here and they also sell christian movies there. However, not all of the movies there are actually Christian movies, but some (very few) are normal movies that have christian message somewhat strong in them inside the story. Maybe just for a short while or something, but anyway enough to be something that would interest christians looking for sutable movies. There is however no point in making new vategory just for 1 or 2 movies among tens of others.

Similarly since now in Finland Creationism have got strong foothold and people arei ntersted in the topic and more and more people digging more deep into creationism come, some Christian bookshops in Finland seem to have Darwins "on the origin of species".

Now if you believe increationism, this is clearly a non christian book. However, to those wanting to dig deep into creationism Darwins book is recomenned reading.


By quick thought, at least following things come to my mind what christian games could be depending on how you view things.

It can teach something about religion, ie. bible, bible archologo, theology etc. and this can be either clearly or just during the course of game without the game actually being christin othwerwise. It could be for example point n click game where due to the plot you are trying to find *real life based) archeological proofs of bible.

It can be meant to convert people either by directly or indirectly. indirectly meaning that it would be a game for example about some evangelists life and when you play that non christian content having game you become intersted in that evangelist and go see him for real.


So if the idea of game is to convert people into christianity, even no christianity is present, I would think that then it should be considered as christian game as what we have been after categorising of Christian game in the first place. But I can also see that if this kind of game comes to christian store, it would be bit of a problematic, since some believer would take that game thinking he gets some nice christian game for himself to grow in his faith, and then its some extremely bloody and foul language including game that was actually meant for nonbelievers to convert them through getting interest to some real life person through that game.


What do you think? What is the purpose of describing something as "Christian game"

Increasingly over time, I've been seeing video games as more than just entertainment, but a unique emerging art form. Other than that, we have simple entertainment or "edutainment."

None of us would classify a Christian Game as pure entertainment; "Christian" would have no where to fit. And let's face it, edutainment is boring. Tangential learning can be achieved with positive results, but stray too far and the game becomes tedious. Most christian games seem to fall into this problem and therein lies the reason why there is a diminished market. Even Christians don't want to play it. *cough*

So, Christian games as an art form? If there is any future for it, this is it. Well, kind of. There is a future here if we can radically change the way we view what a "christian game." While art is an expression of oneself and one's worldview, it isn't a sermon, it isn't a lesson and it isn't direct.
Art is privy to the interpretation of the reader/viewer/player and the takeaway is based on whatever they take out from it. An artist puts a piece out, a bit of themselves, but, in the end, it's left to others interpretation. It's through a person's own interpretation and by letting the viewer put some of themselves into the piece can they truly experience an artwork and have it touch them in a very personal way. The artist and the viewer connect over it in a deep way, even if separated by thousands of miles and thousands of years. That's the power of art.

If we as christian developers keep trying to put out games that teach a very specific lesson or mindset, we won't be making art anymore. It becomes a message and it becomes preachy. It becomes edutainment. It becomes that "artwork" that smashes you over the head with it's point. We need to leave behind the idea of a "christian game" if we want to make something truly powerful. It may sound counter-intuitive, but in order build something more powerful, it needs to be more vague. A player needs to be able to build up ideas and concepts inside the construct of your artwork, not be handed it. This requires you letting go on what a player's takeaway is; this is hard to do for a lot of people.

By all means, build from what you know. Build from what rings deeply in your heart. Build something very personal you and express yourselves through your games. Through it's story. Through it's mechanics. But don't try teaching a lesson; there are other mediums that are better for that.
What games do provide is a very unique and effective medium for expression and interaction. How many other art forms can you name that a person can actively participate in? Or even contribute in?
If we wish to be part of this, we have to step off of the podium and get our hands in it as another person who has a bit of themselves to share.

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Q.E.D.

As I've stated my thoughts several times over the years, I'll try to be short here. Several years ago I concluded there is no such thing as a Christian game, book, movie, whatever. A book is no more Christian than a rock. Does a rock become Christian if you chisel out a verse on it? Likewise, I don't think a game is Christian based on certain criteria it contains.

My thoughts continued to thinking about my own job. I clearly see times when God's Hand is on the work I do. The way I accomplish things, the ideas I get, the speed at which I implement things...I sit back and laugh. "This is NOT me. I could not do this." I find times like this God is clearly giving me wisdom and understanding to help me show HIM to others in the work I do.

My conclusion was, it's not the message that makes something Christian, but whether or not you see God/Christ in the work. I feel if God's Hand is in something, people will get at least a glimpse of Him. In some cases, someone may even fall on their knees and be touched so much, they are drawn to Christ. If we rely on Christ, and seek Him in our work, then, to some extent, people are seeing Christ.

As Christians, what comes out of us should reflect our inner heart of Christ.

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My quote: Have I mentioned I love C# and the iPad?
Another quote: Have I mentioned I love the iPad?

Interesting thoughts. I mean that's generally how we discern one another right? Do you see Christ in me? Do I see Christ in you? All of a sudden the lines between, say, catholic and protestant are blurred in that question. Why do we not do that with everything?

On the other hand, in spite of whether it should be called 'Christian', the question still remains: in a game-of-any-type where we would like to communicate the gospel, how do you do so? How would you classify a game who's central theme is the gospel of Christ, if not by calling it Christian then?

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Public domain code - use at your own risk!

> On the other hand, in spite of whether it should be called 'Christian', the question still
> remains: in a game-of-any-type where we would like to communicate the gospel, how do
> you do so?

I guess that is up to the individual developers how they want to communicate it. I don't want to suggest there is one way and one way only. There are many ways to communicate this message and it really depends on how the Holy Spirit is leading you to bring it out in whatever project you are doing.

> How would you classify a game who's central theme is the gospel of Christ, if not by
> calling it Christian then?

I might consider it a Christian-themed game. But still call it an RTS, Adventure, Puzzle, etc. What if a game's central theme is the Gospel but was developed by all non-Christians. Would you consider it Christian? Does the developer's faith make a game Christian or non-Christian? Is it the message behind it that makes it Christian? Do we call games Shinto games or Animism games when they portray these viewpoints? Many games are pretty clear in their messages.

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My quote: Have I mentioned I love C# and the iPad?
Another quote: Have I mentioned I love the iPad?

I see, thanks

It's interesting - never noticed that we classify games by their mechanic whereas movies we tend to classify by content. It seems very easy to confuse the way we approach these things if we don't define them well.

So then the next question is, does one define the mechanic first, or the content, when it comes to games? Typically we define the mechanic first... to make it a fun game. Is that a backwards thing to do here though? No one wants any game where the game itself seems tacked on, but then again a fun game with the content tacked on always gets noticed and really hurts the content if it seems like it was supposed to be important in some way.

I suppose one would have to simultaneously develop both if they want both to be important, assuming they're not just making an rpg from the get-go. What do you guys think? (Sorry if this is a repeat of conversations of the past?)

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Public domain code - use at your own risk!

I would think that a story, game, song etc. which honors and glorifies the God of Christianity would be considered Christian, just based on the the meaning of the word. Fanny Crosby was a famous hymn writer, but I think she said that she wrote a lot of her hymns before she was Christian, for employment or something. But people still use them in churches.
Also, consider this verse:
Philippians 1:18

Making an accurate representation of Christianity visible in culture seems like a good idea even if the game is not intended to be Christian itself.

To base categorising upon Content, Mechanic etc. I think it depends upon which was most important thing for the developer.

For example if you have played Broken Sword 1 (point n click adventure game), it isnt considered christian game, but its story brings history about templar knights very nicely to the player. Which actually makes it something worth playing for a christian to learn something about one small part of Christian history (depending of course how large is your category of christian history).

Now supposing the message would come out bit stronger, I could easily see that when the current developers had made it with bit stronger message, it would have still been reviewed as just an adventure game. But had it been made by some christian developers, say left behind studios (or whatever their name is) It would be thought as a christian game and sold on christian stores.

Difference is that for revolution software (firm behind Broken Sword) that christianity just happened to be part of the storyline, while Left Behinds whole intention had been that there is a Christian storyline, and rest of the game had been made to support that christian story.


Similarly we can see some RPG games. Some games have some christian content, as example Heroes of Might and Magic serie have Angels as one of the strong creatures in battles. However, for them it is just part of their fantasy world.

Then we can see here in this Forum i remember having seen similarly a fantasy worlds with normal orcs and stuff, but also having christian creatures and religion in them.

Situation is basically same in both cases, except that in Christian developer version the idea is to bring christianity forward while Might and Magics idea is propably just to have some nice battle creature that fits their world.


Actually. One thing that comes to my mind about how the thinking difference changes things.

When ever they now make Star Trek series, they start thinking about what kind is the Star Trek world and so on. By other words they have categorised Star Trek and limited into something that Star Trek world is this and this. And not this and this.

When they were making Star Trek the original series, there werent such thing as Star Trek world yet. Actually Gene Roddenberry got the whole idea about Star Trek partly because he was wanting to tell stories and was trying to figure out a way to do them and then he figured out that if there would be this space ship going to different planets, he could get pretty much any story told that he ever wants to.

Star Trek world started getting its pieces simply due to needs of the Stories. There was no Spocks salute or planet Vulcan at beginning of the serie. When they made second seasons first episode, thats when they started thinking what kind of place Spock would be coming from and they also started thinking if there would be own way of greeting there into which Leonard Nimoy (Spocks actor) figured out it could be the way it is.

Nor was there Vulcan mind meltation or anything, reason for Vulcan mind meltation was that they were trying to figure out how the story goes forward and how do they make it to make sense and then they figured that Spock as a vulcan could have something like Vulcan mind meltation to solve the storyline problem.

If you look at Star Trek original stories, they are probing lots of things on those stories. Like that one episode where they are talking about racism and how stupid it is. There was a planer where half of the humanoids had right face white and left side black, and other half of the planet had it vice versa, right half of face black, and left side white.

They couldnt have made direct story about racism and how stupid it is on those days, but they were able to make it by putting it to different planet and different alien race.

There are lots of stories like that on Original Star Trek.

And this is crucial difference between christian developed and non christian developed games that contain christian elements.

For non christians christian content is to support their current story and they might bend the christian rules to whatever way they decide is necessary for the games needs, while christian developer is trying to bring christianity out for a purpose, that the christianity itself is the storyline.

Here are my answers to the questions.

What makes a game 'Christian'?

If someone calls it 'Christian', it's Christian. Same as for people.

Should we make them?

Yes.

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Sam Washburn

P1XL.com - Rockin' Pixel Games for your iPhone
Rom12 Studios - Christian Games for Young and Old..eventually.

I think genre defines a game.

Fallout and Skyrim are both RPG's made by the same company. They have radically different statements to make about their worlds. For example, Fallout opens and closes with "War never changes" and throughout that game we're shown the many faces of that concept. But it remains an RPG. Its not an anti-war game, and it's not for anti-war players exclusively.

But I agree with sam at the same time that a game is whatever the audience labels it.

Can you make a 'Christian game' that is only for a Christian audience? Yes and I think a lot of the Christian games we've seen fall into this category. Anything that has any sort of bible trivia is in this category in my mind.

Can you make a 'Christian game' that is for any player? Yes, but I wouldn't call it a Christian game. I'd just call it an RTS or whatever genre you'd normally define it as though.

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Sort of like Sam said, I believe a Christian game was made by Christians, meant to glorify Christ in some way.

If I made a game about simple warfare, with no intended reference to Christianity, I wouldn't call it a Christian game. Yet I would classify my last few speed games as Christian.

Works the same with music. There can be gospel or worship music. If that music was made by Christians, I consider it Christian. How you explicit you are about glorifying Christ is up to the developer.

I'm going to have to agree with ArchAngel here. A game should let the person playing the game interpret what you're trying to convey. If they didn't get what you trying to convey, that's fine, they may not be ready or open to what you have to say. My favorite author is Terri Blackstock because she is a great storyteller, but you can also almost always learn something new from her books if you're willing and without being beat over the head with a lesson.

I just wanted to chime in and say that I really like the "gospel" moniker for games more than "Christian" games.

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I think definition of Christian game depends on environment it is being used at.

As example to the "if someone says its christian, it is" that it isnt that working. For lets take from some otehr religions point of view. Lets say muslims.

I could easily see that some Muslim wouldnt play for example Broken Sword 1 because it is Christian game in their opinion. I on the other hand wouldnt call Broken Sword 1 a christian game, although if we really want to stretch that word, then I could barely call it christian.

Another thing is that for example all Scandinavian countries are called Christian countries, and in the context they are defined, yeah, that works quite nicely. But lets look for example my neighboring country Sweden. They have gay marriages there and are basically forcing christians to change into progay policy. For example right now there are people in jail in Sweden, because they have publicly said that homosexualism is a sin. Yes. If you say that publicly in sweden, you can be put to jail from it.

That is only one example, but we can fairly make a question of is that really a christian country?

In my opinion putting christian in front of something depends on the context. For yeah, i do agree that on context these christian country labels are used, theres plenty of christian countries.

Acts 11:26

My point was that God doesn't call people or things Christian, men do.

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Sam Washburn

P1XL.com - Rockin' Pixel Games for your iPhone
Rom12 Studios - Christian Games for Young and Old..eventually.

As you pointed out, the context is pretty subjective and relative. So I think the label more or less depends on the creator of the work, whether they are Christian and whether they consider their work "Christian".

In fact, there are alot of non-Christians who use Christian or Biblical imagery to depict a non-Christian story. On the flip side, CS Lewis made Narnia using pagan mythology to tell a Christian story. Why do I say Narnia is a Christian story? The author was Christian and they more or less said their work was.

Intent is everything. Even though Narnia uses pagan mythology, such as say a centaur, I know that the author is using those things to tell a story that was meant to glorify Christ. As opposed to someone making a work that attacks Christ or only seeks to glorify the creator of the work.

If they aren't Christian, their intent of their work will never be to glorify Christ. And if they are a Christian, but deny having a Christian intent in their work, then we are misinterpreting their original intent of the work in calling it Christian.

@Lava

You have an excellent short to the point description there!

Rarely you see this good reading anywhere.


I would classify them as jokes.

Wow, thanks Bugala, I am honored



Haha, thank you for the compliment!

lol